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エルグランデ(El Grande)の報告
#58695: "Veto doesn't currently require players to announce their special actions"
どういった内容ですか?
どうしましたか?以下から選んでください
ルール: ゲームのルールが正しく実装されていない
詳細
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• BGAで正しく実装されていないルールはどの部分ですか?
The full text of the card reads as follows:
"You may prevent one special action in this round or the next round. All players must announce their special actions before they execute them."
I see nothing in the log that indicates whether or not my opponent has decided to use or forego his special action; therefore I can only assume that the implementation is asking me to decide on my veto /before/ the other players have announced their special actions. -
• ルールの間違いはゲームのリプレイで確認できますか?そうであれば、行動番号は何番ですか?
Game is currently in progress, so I have no idea if this will be visible on replay, but I suspect so. It's currently move 235.
• あなたのブラウザは何ですか?
Mozilla v5
報告履歴
2022年 2月 2日 20:45 • bananasplay • バグは未だ開発者によって再現できていません:
In addition to the card text, the rulebook (p. 10) contains the additional clarifying text for this card:
"Once during this round or the next round, you may entirely or partly prevent another player from executing his special action. You may prevent a special action before or during its execution. The player affected by the Veto must immediately terminate the execution of their special action."
Thus, for the Veto card to be properly implemented, each decision point of an opponent should be logged and "offered" for veto by the holder of the card, such as when multiple caballeros are allowed to be moved. If allowed, the log should simply say "X does not use the Veto card", and the portion of the action should go through.
For cards that allow scoring of multiple regions, such as some of the cards in stack 3, note that p. 11 contains the following rule: "If multiple regions are scored by a single card, the active player chooses the order in which they are to be scored."
The only reason to have this particular rule is for the veto card; otherwise, given that all regions are scored independently of each other, there would be no reason to choose the order of scoring.
For these scoring cards, therefore, the Veto holder should be given the opportunity to use the veto after learning a) whether or not the scoring card is to be activated, and if activated, then b) the Veto holder should be allowed to veto each region, one at a time, as the holder of the scoring card chooses the regions to be scored.
"Once during this round or the next round, you may entirely or partly prevent another player from executing his special action. You may prevent a special action before or during its execution. The player affected by the Veto must immediately terminate the execution of their special action."
Thus, for the Veto card to be properly implemented, each decision point of an opponent should be logged and "offered" for veto by the holder of the card, such as when multiple caballeros are allowed to be moved. If allowed, the log should simply say "X does not use the Veto card", and the portion of the action should go through.
For cards that allow scoring of multiple regions, such as some of the cards in stack 3, note that p. 11 contains the following rule: "If multiple regions are scored by a single card, the active player chooses the order in which they are to be scored."
The only reason to have this particular rule is for the veto card; otherwise, given that all regions are scored independently of each other, there would be no reason to choose the order of scoring.
For these scoring cards, therefore, the Veto holder should be given the opportunity to use the veto after learning a) whether or not the scoring card is to be activated, and if activated, then b) the Veto holder should be allowed to veto each region, one at a time, as the holder of the scoring card chooses the regions to be scored.
2022年 2月 2日 22:37 • Volker78 • バグは開発者に確認されました:
Yes, the rules are not fully implemented for the veto card, because the code can get very complicated, and hard to get this done. Even the current simple handling is quite hard (btw for some actions you are offered to choose from moves the oppenent makes). So (I can only speak for myself) I won't make the code even more complicated. You may play without veto.
2022年 4月 2日 23:09 • elieli29 • バグは開発者に確認されました:
I know it's far from simple to implement the actual rules related to veto card,.
I hope that considering paragraph 9 of the link at the bottom, it will be feasible to find an implementation simpler of the veto card and closer to the real game experience.
In particular, this sentence:
"You may only use your Veto once, and during the special action is carrying out. You may not cancel an action once carried out."
suggests that no real undo is actually needed, because once an action has been carried out, neither veto card can cancel it.
A straightforward implementation may be this one: when a veto card can be used, each player performing a card action may perform the action that will be "saved" and "showed" (explained in text) to the player with veto card in order to let her/him decide if the action may be taken or not. If not, no more action related to the card played should be performed by anyone.
So it would be like an UNDO on a player X action, selected by the player with veto card.
This will apply also on cards that have "more actions".
For example, considering "move from a region to another one, 2 caballeros of yours,and 2 caballeros of any of your opponents" will be split at most in 4 "steps". Each step will be "saved" and "showed" for approval to the player with veto card. If first step is allowed, then second step can be "saved" and "showed", and so on). As soon as a "step" is blocked, player turn will end and "saved" action will be simply discarded (not applied).
To me, it seems that this way we are satistying paragraphs 9.1 and 9.2.
Paragraphs 9.3 and 9.4 explain the behaviour with special scoring and secret disk.
Since in that case there will be an execution order (chosen by a player or based on the regions or the number of caballeros), the only change is that the UNDO will be applied to the scoring of each region or to each player executing the action established by the card and not only to the action taken by a single opponent.
Hope this help.
Thanks for your work.
boardgamegeek.com/filepage/10182/new-rules-action-cards-confirmed-w-kramerpdf
I hope that considering paragraph 9 of the link at the bottom, it will be feasible to find an implementation simpler of the veto card and closer to the real game experience.
In particular, this sentence:
"You may only use your Veto once, and during the special action is carrying out. You may not cancel an action once carried out."
suggests that no real undo is actually needed, because once an action has been carried out, neither veto card can cancel it.
A straightforward implementation may be this one: when a veto card can be used, each player performing a card action may perform the action that will be "saved" and "showed" (explained in text) to the player with veto card in order to let her/him decide if the action may be taken or not. If not, no more action related to the card played should be performed by anyone.
So it would be like an UNDO on a player X action, selected by the player with veto card.
This will apply also on cards that have "more actions".
For example, considering "move from a region to another one, 2 caballeros of yours,and 2 caballeros of any of your opponents" will be split at most in 4 "steps". Each step will be "saved" and "showed" for approval to the player with veto card. If first step is allowed, then second step can be "saved" and "showed", and so on). As soon as a "step" is blocked, player turn will end and "saved" action will be simply discarded (not applied).
To me, it seems that this way we are satistying paragraphs 9.1 and 9.2.
Paragraphs 9.3 and 9.4 explain the behaviour with special scoring and secret disk.
Since in that case there will be an execution order (chosen by a player or based on the regions or the number of caballeros), the only change is that the UNDO will be applied to the scoring of each region or to each player executing the action established by the card and not only to the action taken by a single opponent.
Hope this help.
Thanks for your work.
boardgamegeek.com/filepage/10182/new-rules-action-cards-confirmed-w-kramerpdf
2022年 4月 3日 8:59 • Volker78 • バグは開発者に確認されました:
I will not take into consideration the linked pdf. Also asking after every move would also be very frustrating for turn-based games, and complicated to program.
2022年 4月 3日 12:06 • elieli29 • バグは開発者に確認されました:
Playing a turn-based games is an additional feature offered by the platform and, IMHO, shouldn't affect the players who wants to play the real-time game.
I mean, to me it seems odd that a rightful rule of the game is not going to be implemented due to the fact that playing a turn-based games will be frustrating.
Nonetheless, if developers think that realise the veto card rule will complicate too much the code, this is a horse of a very different colour.
Thanks.
I mean, to me it seems odd that a rightful rule of the game is not going to be implemented due to the fact that playing a turn-based games will be frustrating.
Nonetheless, if developers think that realise the veto card rule will complicate too much the code, this is a horse of a very different colour.
Thanks.
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