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デリヴァランス(Deliverance)の報告
#131778: "Designate a Demon mover or have it automated"
implemented: この提案は実行されました
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提案:次項がゲームを大きく改善すると思われる
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Having every move of a demon decided with a majority vote by all the players just slows the game down, especially in turn based mode because there are at least a half dozen votes every time it's the demon's turn. Is it possible to have a vote to determine who moves all the demons? Or even better, can their movement be automated?
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2024年Jul26日 16:25 • Clutron • この提案はまだ開発者によって解析されていません:
You could even make them options at table creation: Majority Vote, Designate a Demon Mover, Automatic.
I know there is utility in being able to decide the movement of the demons yourself, but having to vote every time is just long and drawn out.
I know there is utility in being able to decide the movement of the demons yourself, but having to vote every time is just long and drawn out.
2024年Jul26日 19:31 • Kogogarog • 開発者はそれが良い考えであることに同意し、それに取り組むつもりです:
This is one of the reasons we suggest real-time. Currently it does auto-select if there is only one valid path, but this is rarer than desired.
We were actually thinking of making it as a per player option that the player can decide they don't care and have it auto-select for them.
This option would default to on as the true strategic value of movements will be more important at the higher difficulty levels.
Do you think this approach would provide an adequate solution?
Minor Spoiler: Some of the not yet implemented content will deal extra damage to players if moved in a straight line or other such, so implementing the voting system (as per rulebook) was necessary at first.
We were actually thinking of making it as a per player option that the player can decide they don't care and have it auto-select for them.
This option would default to on as the true strategic value of movements will be more important at the higher difficulty levels.
Do you think this approach would provide an adequate solution?
Minor Spoiler: Some of the not yet implemented content will deal extra damage to players if moved in a straight line or other such, so implementing the voting system (as per rulebook) was necessary at first.
2024年Jul26日 20:06 • Clutron • 開発者はそれが良い考えであることに同意し、それに取り組むつもりです:
Adding a per player option where they can vote, or have the computer choose for them, that could work.
Would it be implemented that if 2 out of 3 players opt for the automatic option that the third would be the one picking where the demons move?
Would it be implemented that if 2 out of 3 players opt for the automatic option that the third would be the one picking where the demons move?
2024年Jul26日 20:20 • Kogogarog • 開発者はそれが良い考えであることに同意し、それに取り組むつもりです:
Good thought. I was thinking per player would auto-generate a vote for a path, which would be inserted into the random selection from them.
But we could weight it so auto-generated is 1 vote and user input is 10 votes, effectively making it so the third would always be selecting how they move. Or if all auto-generate a random one is selected. Or if one auto-generates and two/three vote it will select tie-break between the two inputs.
But we could weight it so auto-generated is 1 vote and user input is 10 votes, effectively making it so the third would always be selecting how they move. Or if all auto-generate a random one is selected. Or if one auto-generates and two/three vote it will select tie-break between the two inputs.
2024年Jul28日 22:07 • PTyall • 開発者はそれが良い考えであることに同意し、それに取り組むつもりです:
I wonder if this approach being discussed would still lead to an alpha gamer situation. Players may be pressured into picking the auto-select option to keep from slowing down the game; and it might even become a stigma to be “that guy” who is annoying to play with because they won’t just do the auto-select.
What about a more micro approach? I’m thinking that voting would be required by everyone for the first move of each demon type, but then add a checkbox for “Automate Remaining Votes for This Demon Type” that is available to check at every voting opportunity. That way everyone is engaged to start with each demon type, and if you have skin in the game for that demon type, then you can keep actively voting. If not, or if you trust the others/don’t care, then automate the rest of your votes to speed up the game until the next demon type acts.
For the in between votes (player order, splitting damage, etc), maybe you have a similar approach, but make it per round with a checkbox each time that reads, “Automate Misc Votes for Remainder of Round,” and then reset each round instead of each demon type.
I like the weighting idea, and it could be used with this as well.
What about a more micro approach? I’m thinking that voting would be required by everyone for the first move of each demon type, but then add a checkbox for “Automate Remaining Votes for This Demon Type” that is available to check at every voting opportunity. That way everyone is engaged to start with each demon type, and if you have skin in the game for that demon type, then you can keep actively voting. If not, or if you trust the others/don’t care, then automate the rest of your votes to speed up the game until the next demon type acts.
For the in between votes (player order, splitting damage, etc), maybe you have a similar approach, but make it per round with a checkbox each time that reads, “Automate Misc Votes for Remainder of Round,” and then reset each round instead of each demon type.
I like the weighting idea, and it could be used with this as well.
2024年Jul28日 23:09 • Kogogarog • 開発者はそれが良い考えであることに同意し、それに取り組むつもりです:
With the approach I was looking into for feasibility if be something players can switch on and off throughout the game without further prompting. So maybe once they're down to 3HP they turn it off and take interest in who the demons target for a while, then flip it back on.
Also, semi related, we have something coming down the pipeline for pause triggers. A big challenge in Deliverance is that Interrupts can be played, well, as interrupts. In between a demon's movement and when they deal damage even. So if you know an abomination is coming at you with a smash, this time allows you to spend some courage to gain shield (with the right Treasure equipped) or get some healing, or play that damage prevention prayer card. If demons auto selected, moved, and damaged, most players wouldn't have the time to react to that. I'll post more on that as a suggestion tomorrow. Once that is fully architected it should resolve most of this discussion.
Also, semi related, we have something coming down the pipeline for pause triggers. A big challenge in Deliverance is that Interrupts can be played, well, as interrupts. In between a demon's movement and when they deal damage even. So if you know an abomination is coming at you with a smash, this time allows you to spend some courage to gain shield (with the right Treasure equipped) or get some healing, or play that damage prevention prayer card. If demons auto selected, moved, and damaged, most players wouldn't have the time to react to that. I'll post more on that as a suggestion tomorrow. Once that is fully architected it should resolve most of this discussion.
2024年Aug1日 15:05 • cybrweez • 開発者はそれが良い考えであることに同意し、それに取り組むつもりです:
I like option at table creation. Was also thinking the angel who went right before the demon decides, since in turn based, that'll speed it up as they just took a turn they are available to move demon that goes right after them.
2024年Aug2日 15:11 • Kogogarog • この提案は実行されました:
We just deployed a new version that does a lot more with path finding. Specifically we gave a shot at "It doesn't matter, just move" whenever the rules specify a target to move towards. So a lot more demon movement is fully automated. The times that movement is NOT automated at the moment is when an angel is the mover or the target and there are multiple potential endpoints.
NOTE: not choosing the full path can affect fallback movements and have strategic impact.
NOTE: ONLY targeted angel's controller has a say in the demon's movement.
I think eventually we'll make a table option for Demon Auto Movement:
- Full: No one at this table cares, pick an end spot and path automatically
- Basic (Newly implemented): Only ask if the endpoint will be different and an angel is involved
- RAW: Strategy matters here, the demons will only move without player input if their path is compelled by the rules. Ask targeted angel for input OR (I like your idea of last one to move, but currently I'm not sure if this is tracked internally)
Please note that making an AI on BGA is against the rules, so best we can do is automatic random picking between valid paths. We cannot analyze the board and pick a strategically optimal move automatically. RAW will give you best chance at keeping demons away from your saints!
NOTE: not choosing the full path can affect fallback movements and have strategic impact.
NOTE: ONLY targeted angel's controller has a say in the demon's movement.
I think eventually we'll make a table option for Demon Auto Movement:
- Full: No one at this table cares, pick an end spot and path automatically
- Basic (Newly implemented): Only ask if the endpoint will be different and an angel is involved
- RAW: Strategy matters here, the demons will only move without player input if their path is compelled by the rules. Ask targeted angel for input OR (I like your idea of last one to move, but currently I'm not sure if this is tracked internally)
Please note that making an AI on BGA is against the rules, so best we can do is automatic random picking between valid paths. We cannot analyze the board and pick a strategically optimal move automatically. RAW will give you best chance at keeping demons away from your saints!
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